James Creek Cider House

Yangarra Estate

High Sands McLaren Vale Grenache 2016

A highly awarded Grenache from McLaren Vale made by the talented Peter Fraser. Sweet red earthy fruits but not overly raspberry as Aussie Grenache often is. Has a lovely sweet smooth texture. James Halliday awarded this wine his Wine of the Year in 2020 and 99 points. Vines planted in 1946 in ancient sandy soils ideal for this Grenache. If not Australia’s best Grenache then certainly in the conversation. The main reason we drank this wine a few days ago was to remember Peter Fraser who sadly passed away unexpectedly in a tragic house fire. — 8 months ago

Paul, Brian and 15 others liked this
Bob McDonald

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@Jamie Lauder Absolutely Jamie. 🍷👍
Doug Powers

Doug Powers

Very sad story @Bob McDonald — we all lost another Grenache virtuoso recently in France, Emmanuel Reynard of Chateau Rayas!!
Bob McDonald

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@Doug Powers Very true Doug. Also a few years ago, Henri Bonneau.

Taittinger

Comtes de Champagne Grand Crus Brut Blanc de Blancs 2007

Somm David T
9.5

Well...this was one hell of a week. There is only one way to wind it down. Reach for an excellent bottle of vintage Champagne.

My first thoughts are how delicate this is on the palate. Further, how unbelievable it will be with another 8-10 years in bottle.

The nose shows; slightly sour lemon, the good parts of lemon Pledge, lemon meringue, white stone fruits, pineapple fresh with lots of juice, grapefruit, lime pulp, honeysuckle, soft, haunting caramel, brioche, limestone & slightly, dirty, grey volcanics, saline, sea fossils, sea spray, bread dough, vanilla, white spices-light ginger with spring flowers, mixed floral greens & lilies.

The body is light on its feet and dances on the palate. Delicacy abounds. Its soft, gorgeous mousse right there with the best money can buy. Slightly sour lemon, lemon meringue, green & with more bruised golden apple, white stone fruits, pineapple fresh with lots of juice, grapefruit, lime pulp, touch of apple cider, honeysuckle, soft, haunting caramel, ginger ale into cream soda, brioche, nougat, toffee notes, lighter nuts without skin, limestone & slightly, dirty, grey volcanics, saline, sea fossils, sea spray, bread dough, vanillin, marzipan, white spices-light ginger with spring flowers, mixed floral greens & lilies. The acidity is mellow yet lively, gorgeous and as good as it gets. The finish is all luxury. So well knitted & balanced, elegant, rich but not overpowering and gently persisting several minutes.

Photos of; The House of Taittinger, their caves so chalky white and built on the famous Crayères Cellars of Reims: 2.5 miles of tunnels (they own 1/4 to 1/3 of it) cut out of chalk by the Romans, the portrait of Thibaud IV who was a king, lord, manager, singer, conqueror, explorer & 11th century Crusader all rolled into one from which, this Cuvée was the catalyst creation and part of the 600 plus hectares they own in Champange.

Some producer notes; Taittinger's history can be traced back to 1734, when it was originally known as Forest-Fourneaux, founded by Jacques Fourneaux who worked closely with local Benedictine monks to learn how to produce wine. They were just the 3rd Champange house.

The estate was bought by the Taittingers – a family of wine merchants – in 1932, and thanks to the great depression and subsequent low land prices, the family also picked up huge swathes of vineyard. From 1945-1960, Francois Taittinger established the cellars in the Abbey of Saint-Nicaise, and after his death in 1960 his brother Claude took over, pushing the estate into a Champagne house of world renown. Such was the status of the label that the Taittinger family soon expanded its business into other luxury goods. However, this eventually led to financial difficulties, and in 2005 the Taittinger brand – including the Champagne house – was sold to the American owned Starwood Hotel Group. The sale was badly received by the Champagne industry, with many fearing the new owners – unfamiliar with the culture of Champagne – would put profit ahead of quality.

Just one year later, Claude’s nephew, Pierre-Emmanuel Taittinger, who had always been opposed to the sale, negotiated a €660m deal with the Starwood Group, and the Taittinger family resumed ownership of the company.

In 2017, Taittinger planted its first vines in England, near a village in Kent, for its venture into English sparkling wine. The first bottle will be ready in 2023.

1/8/21
— 6 years ago

Eric, Juan and 32 others liked this
Sean Smith

Sean Smith

@David T I have a feeling we’re close by. I shop at the Costco in Novato. Tough to leave with less than a case of wine sometimes.
Somm David T

Somm David T Influencer Badge

@Sean Smith Novato is a good Costco zip code for wine. Costco definitely pushes the higher quality wines & therefore more expensive wines into well to do income zip codes. I’ve seen Petrus a few times in Scottsdale.
Eric

Eric Premium Badge

They had a pretty cool Latour combo when we were there last week.

Caillez-Lemaire

Eclats Brut Damery Champagne Blend

Somm David T
9.2

I like to thank @Severn Goodwin for his kindness & generosity for sending this beautiful bottle of Champagne.

We shared this with friends and paired this with apple walnut vinaigrette salad last night. Complimented the salad nicely. It was a nice yin and yang balanced tug of war of food & wine.

The body is beautiful in the mouth with nice acidity. Bruised apple & pear, some apple cider, pineapple juice, lime zest & candy, white peach, easy, soft chalkiness, soft, fine, grey volcanic minerals, sea spray, brioche with spring flowers and yellow lilies. Finishes softly, elegant, nicely balanced and persists nicely.

Photos of; the house of Caillez Lemaire, bottles waiting to sold, Current 18th century family Owners - Virginie and Laurent Van Poperinghe and one of their vineyards.
— 7 years ago

Douglas, Julie and 14 others liked this
Severn G

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Yeah! Glad it was well received! 👍👍
Somm David T

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@Severn Goodwin Thanks again. 👍

Downeast Cider House

Pumpkin Blend

It tastes like an apple pie with pumpkin but not overly sweet. Fantastic cider! — 8 years ago

Ravines Wine Cellars

Dry Rosé Pinot Noir 2017

16 June 2018. Brooklyn Cider House, Brooklyn, NY. — 8 years ago

Ployez-Jacquemart

Extra Quality Brut Champagne Blend

03/18 James Beard House— 1st course: hamachi crudo — 8 years ago

Paul Bara

Grand Millésime Brut Grand Cru Champagne Blend 2018

Somm David T
9.2

Tasted from 1/2 bottle. They come in handy for dinner for two in many cases, but especially at a restaurant that allows corkage. Most do in California. It is even harder to find vintage champagne in 375ml’s.

The 2018 vintage was good to very good. You need to taste and or read up for its best offerings.

A note, I tasted at the Billecart-Salmon property in later October 2022 with Mathieu Roland-Billecart. As insightful as that was, he was asked other than Billecart Salmon champagnes, what was one of his favorite champagnes? His reply was surprisingly an older vintage Paul Bara he had recently. That’s a producer question that gets asked often. Normally generates a pause with some minor angst to answer.

The nose shows; lemon chiffon/meringue, bruised apple to slightly cider, bruised pear, yellow & white stone fruits, just ripe pineapple, orange citrus blend, lime pulp, tropical melons, whipped, white cream, white spice-ginger, yeasty bread dough, saline, crushed limestone pulp, crumbled chalk, sea fossils, white spring flowers set in yellow lilies.

The palate is round & soft. The mousse is delicate w/ micro oxidation. Ripe; lemon chiffon/meringue, white & yellow stone fruit, slightly bruised apple & Bosc pear, lime pulp, orange citrus rind, some tropical melons, cream, ginger white spice, yeasty bread dough, sea spray, saline, sea fossils, dry crumbled chalkiness, caramel notes, heather honey, warm perfectly toasted toast, graham cracker, nougat w/ nuts, yellow flowers set in a field of white spring flowers, excellent acidity with a nicely; balanced, structured, tensioned, polished finish that lasts a minute and falls on limestone laced with soft, dry, powdery chalkiness.

Photos of; the house of Paul Bara, chalky caves w/ riddling racks, old wood basket press & a vineyard picking party.
— a year ago

Shay, Scott@Mister and 13 others liked this

Finger Lakes Cider House

Kite & String Baldwin Traditional Method Cider

The best can’t wait to get back to the finger lakes to pick up more — 6 years ago

Lindsay Rogers
with Lindsay
Paul liked this

Hope & Grace

Doctor's Vineyard Pinot Noir 2013

Somm David T
9.3

I kid you not, Charles Hendricks is likely the most underrated & under known Winemaker in Napa Valley.

If you have not had his wines, you are missing out on great wines & relative real value for Napa. He makes his own private higher end label-Hendricks, Hope & Grace and midway through the 14 vintage for; James Cole, Regusci & T-Vine.

There are few Winemakers that can make wines that drink well young & some that will age two decades plus stored correctly.

This Santa Lucia Doctor’s Vineyard is really good but, his private label Hendricks Pinot from Santa Lucia is off the charts. His 2008 Hendricks Pinot Noir is the highest rating I have ever given a Ca Pinot Noir, 98.

The 13 Doctor’s Vineyard is better than his 12 & is still a little early right now. It will improve over the next 5 years & hold there a couple of years before its gentle decline.

The nose reveals, ripe, well extracted & slightly baked; blackberries, stewed, deep, dark, black plum, black cherries, black raspberries, baked strawberries, dry pomegranate & cranberries with shades of blueberries. Dark spices, clove, nutmeg, cinnamon & vanilla, touch of savory meats, anise to black licorice, black tea, wet clay, steeped black tea, touch of herbs dominated with Rosemary, rich, black, earth, dry stones, dry crushed rocks, fresh tobacco, leather notes, volcanic minerals, limestone with bright, fresh & withering florals that are; dark, red, purple, blue mixed in violets and lavender.

The body is full, rich, lush and gorgeous. The structure, tension, length and balance are just hitting their good phase. It is simply a beautiful & complex Pinot Noir. Nicely extracted & slightly baked; blackberries, stewed, deep, dark, black plum, black cherries, black raspberries, baked strawberries, dry pomegranate & cranberries with more blueberries than the nose. Dark spices that bring palate heat, clove, nutmeg, cinnamon stick & vanilla, touch of savory meats, peppery notes, anise to black licorice, black tea, wet clay, steeped black tea, touch of herbs dominated with Rosemary, rich, black, earth, dry stones, dry crushed rocks, fresh tobacco, leather notes, volcanic minerals, limestone with bright, fresh & withering florals that are; dark, red, purple, blue mixed in violets and lavender. The acidity is very good & excellent at containing the slightly higher ABV. The long, complex finish is, well balanced fruit & earth, polished and will persist until dawn.

Photos of; Their Doctor’s Vineyard, one of my favorite paintings that used to hang behind the bar in their tasting room & now hangs in Charles’ house (it reminds me of a Jackson Pollock), Winemaker-Charles Hendricks and the front of their tasting room in downtown Yountville.
— 6 years ago

Daniel P., Shay and 25 others liked this
Eric

Eric Premium Badge

You ain’t kidding about that SLH Hendricks!
Stuart Scheff

Stuart Scheff

Great review. I agree!!!

Saxum Vineyards

Bone Rock James Berry Vineyard Syrah Grenache 2009

Yes! Congratulations to Jen for getting our old house sold quickly and at a great price, despite the smokey atmosphere. — 8 years ago

Kimberly, Jason and 14 others liked this

Launois Père et Fils

Special Club Brut Blanc de Blancs Grand Cru Champagne Chardonnay 2008

Somm David T
9.5

The 2008 Launois Special Club might be the best they’ve made in the 2000’s that’s been released. Pronounced (loon wah). My palate tells me part of this was aged in tank and some of it in wood.

It’s made from two plots of 65 year old vines, one in the Grand Cru of Oger called 'Chenys' and one in Mesnil called 'Derriere Maison’. The plots in Mesnil are their oldest.

The nose reveals, bruised green & golden apples, apple cider, bosc pear without skin, overripe pineapple, meyer lemon, lime zest, spice, touch of nutmeg, cream soda, baguette crust, walnuts, volcanic minerals, sea shells, nice chalkiness, yellow lilies, acacia blossoms and spring flowers.

The body is full, rich, soft & creamy. Micro bubbles. The palate shows nice backbone of minerals and excellent chalkiness. Bruised green & golden apples, apple cider, bosc pear without skin, white nectarines, overripe pineapple, meyer lemon, lime zest, spice, coriander, touch of nutmeg, graham crackers, cream soda, baguette crust, walnuts, volcanic minerals, sea shells, nice chalkiness, yellow lilies, acacia blossom and spring flowers. The acidity is magnificent. The long, rich, well balanced, elegant finish astonishes. It’s very good tonight but will wait another 3-4 years before I open another.

Photos of, the House of Launois, two different areas that make up their champagne museum that encompass Champagne’s history and then some, as well as, some of their Grand Cru Vineyards.

This 08 Special Club was/is a steal at $59.
— 8 years ago

Paul, Eric and 21 others liked this
Severn G

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Special Club!!!

Bollinger

Brut Rosé Champagne Blend

Somm David T
9.1

On the nose; bright cherries, ripe strawberry & cranberry reduction, black raspberries, raspberries, watermelon near the rhine, mixed orange citrus, oyster shells, baguette crust, understated volcanic minerals, chalk, saline, fresh pink roses and florals. The body is full and a shade gluey. The fruits are ripe, rich and candied/gummy in style. Bright cherries, black cherries ripe strawberry & cranberry reduction, black raspberries, raspberries, watermelon near the rhine, mixed orange citrus spray, saline, seashells, soft grey volcanic minerals, lots of grippy powdery razor sharp chalkiness, baguette crust, fresh pink roses & florals, acidity that is round and well done, understated delicate micro bubbles and a long, well balanced, rich finish. The reason why I prefer the Billecart Salmon, Ruinart & Laurent Perrier over the Bollinger is it’s a little too sweet for me. Photos of; the House of Bollinger, cellar, headstone that marks one of their vineyards and their harvest staff picking perfectly manicured rows. Producer notes and history...Bollinger has roots dating back to 1585 when the Hennequins, one of the Bollinger founding families, owned land in Cramant. Before the Bollinger house was founded in the 18th century, the Villermont family practised wine making, though not under their family name. In 1750, Villermont settled at 16 rue Jules Lobet, which would eventually become the head office for Bollinger. In 1803 Jacques Joseph Placide Bollinger was born in Ellwangen, in the kingdom of Württemberg. In 1822, he moved to Champagne and found work at the house of Muller Ruinart, which no longer exists. Many other Germans came to settle in the Champagne region, including Johann-Josef Krug and the Heidsiecks, who founded a house that would become; Charles Heidsieck, Piper Heidsieck, Veuve Clicquot and others. The Champagne house Renaudin Bollinger was founded in 1829 in Aÿ by Hennequin de Villermont, Paul Levieux Renaudin and Jacques Bollinger. The partners agreed that the Villermont name would not be used on the labels, hence the house name Renaudin Bollinger. Starting when Jacques Bollinger married Charlotte de Villermont, the house has been managed by the Bollinger family. Even though Paul Renaudin passed without an heir to his name, the label did not become solely Bollinger until the 1960s. Founder Jacques Joseph Bollinger married Charlotte de Villermont. The had a daughter, who had two sons Joseph and Georges. These sons took over the company in 1885 and began expanding the family estate by purchasing vineyards in nearby villages. The sons also developed the image of the brand, such as when Bollinger became the official supplier to the British court and received a Royal Warrant in 1884 from Queen Victoria. In 1918, Jacques Bollinger, the son of Georges, took over the company and married Emily Law de Lauriston Boubers, known as "Lily". Jacques expanded the facilities by building new cellars, purchasing the Tauxières vineyards, and acquiring the assets of another Champagne house on Boulevard du Maréchal de Lattre de Tassign, where Bollinger's offices are presently located. When Jacques Bollinger died in 1941, Lily Bollinger took over. Lilly expanded production with the purchase of even more vineyards, but is best known for traveling the world to market the brand. Bollinger was modernized under the Claude d'Hautefeuille, who acquired additional vineyards and further developed the brand internationally. Following Claude, his cousin Christian Bizot took over the Bollinger house and expanded world distribution. Their Winemaker also used several James Bond film movies to market the brand. Bollinger is fermented in oak barrels. At harvest, only the first pressing is used in the cuvée, unless the vintage is of particularly high quality, when a second pressing of Chardonnay will be used. Bollinger sells the second pressing, the tailles. Bollinger utilizes two pressing houses (Louvois and Mareuil sur Aÿ) to ensure a short distance between harvest location and pressing. When possible, grapes purchased from growers are pressed by the house. When the pressed wine arrives, the Bollinger cellar master analyzes the musts for quality, discarding and selling off those that do not meet the house standards. The first fermentation is done cru by cru, variety by variety, preserving many of the unique characteristics of the vines location. Bollinger is one of the few Champagne houses to do some first fermentation in oak barrels. Wines that will not hold up to first fermentation in wood are vinified in vats. Bollinger Champagnes usually undergo malolactic fermentation. The Grande Année 1995 did not undergo malolactic fermentation. Bollinger uses only traditional yeast. They’ve decided that new generations of yeasts (agglomerated yeasts and encapsulated yeasts) do not produce satisfactory Champagne. Vintage wine, including all wine to be used in a Grande Année, is fermented in small oak barrels, sorted according to origin and variety. Both oak and stainless steel are used for non-vintage wine. Bollinger also has the last Cooperage in Champagne. The oak barrels are all at least four years old, avoiding the transfer of tannins to the wine. The wines are only lightly filtered. All Bollinger Champagne spends a long time on its lees, contributing to the complex flavour of the wine. Though appellation d'origine contrôlée rules only require 12 months on lees for non-vintage Champagne and for vintage (NV wines, 15 months from tirage to release and vintage wines must be kept for 36 months from tirage to release), Bollinger ages their non-vintage wines three years, and the vintage wines from five to eight years. The Grande Année and R.D. Champagnes are riddled by hand. At disgorgement, Bollinger wines are given a low dosage, to maintain the balance and flavor of the wine. The company uses 6-9 grams of sugar per liter for the Special Cuvée and La Grande Année. The extra-brut R.D. is dosed between 4 and 5 grams. After dosage, the wines are aged an additional several months, resting for a minimum of three months before shipping. Bollinger owns nearly 160 hectares of vines, producing more than 60% of its supply. The vines are largely Pinot Noir, specifically clone 386. Bollinger believes this clone ensures good quality as well as highlighting characteristics of the various terroirs. The vineyards also include some rare ungrafted French vines from before the phylloxera. Bollinger owns vines all over Champagne, including the crus of Aÿ, Bouzy and Verzenay. — 9 years ago

Severn, Shay and 27 others liked this
Severn G

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'99's, so still too young, but I'll certainly keep you in mind!
I figured a real keyboard needed to be involved, thanks for the insight.
Paul T, Missing My Beautiful Wife 24/7

Paul T, Missing My Beautiful Wife 24/7

A lot of big words for a 9.1🤕
Somm David T

Somm David T Influencer Badge

@Paul Treadway Huntington Beacher Its Bollinger. They do make some great Champagne...not necessarily their N/V Rosé. However, I love producer history and certainly have a lot respect for their long history.

Château de Saint-Cosme

Little James Basket Press Vin de Pays d'Oc Grenache 2020

Excellent. Soft and complex, French AF aromatics. GWC house. — 5 years ago

Jen Krondon
with Jen

Bollinger

Special Cuvée Brut Champagne

Somm David T
9.1

Congratulations to TB12 on going to his 14th Conference Championship.

The nose shows; more macerated green & golden apple, pineapple than usual. Touch of apple cider, bruised pear, some dried apricots, nougat, melted, salted caramel, alluvial limestone minerals, chalk, sea spray, roasted white spice, dry yeast, rising bread dough, baguette crust, ginger ale with withering lilies and some spring flowers.

The palate has softer mousse & less lively acidity than previous bottles. Still nice but, it’s giving cause to wonder when this bottle was disgorged. Macerated green & golden apple, yellow peach, pineapple juice. Touch of apple cider, bruised pear, some dried apricots, nougat, melted, salted caramel, alluvial limestone minerals, grey volcanics, gritty chalkiness, sea fossils, saline, roasted white spice, nuts, dry yeast, rising bread dough, baguette crust, ginger ale that has the high notes of root beer, vanillin with withering lilies and some spring flowers. The acidity is ok but, seems off a bit. Change in base wine for this bottling? The finish still rich, elegant, well balanced persisting minutes.

Bottle is off slightly from the many others we’ve enjoyed.

Photos of; the House of Bollinger, branded cave with resting bottles, their Cooper making barrels and one of their Grand Cru vineyards.

1/17/21
— 6 years ago

Matt, E and 26 others liked this

Egly-Ouriet

Vieilles Vignes de Pinot Noir Ambonnay Brut Grand Cru Blanc De Noirs Champagne

Somm David T
9.6

Big weekend holidays call for big wines. Happy Memorial Day weekend.

Time to make the new Riedel Vintage Sommelier flutes really prove their worth.

The nose reveals; golden & green apples, sour lemons, lime juice to almost candy, touch of apple cider, overripe pineapple, lime, tangerine notes, stone fruit-apricot & peach, caramel, sweet, cream butter, vanillin, very beautiful & powdery chalkiness, saline, sea fossils, delicate, grey volcanics (almost ash), bread dough, light yeastiness, chunks of just fruit in marmalade, jam, hints of candle wax, honeysuckle & comb, gentle white spice with yellow lilies, jasmine, spring flowers, fruit blooms with some mixed in cut greens.

The body/mousse is gentle & delicate...super micro oxygenation/bubbles. She shows her beauty as she glides over the palate. More golden apple than the nose, green apple, sour lemons, lime zest to almost candy, touch of apple cider, overripe pineapple, lime, tangerine notes, stone fruit-apricot & peach, caramel, vanillin, sweet, cream butter, very beautiful & extremely, powdery chalkiness, saline, sea fossils, delicate, grey volcanics (almost ash), bread dough, light yeastiness, sesame oil, silvered almonds, chunks of just fruit in marmalade, jam, hints of candle wax, honeysuckle & comb, gentle white spice with the perfect light heat & palate penetration with yellow lilies, jasmine, spring flowers, fruit blooms with some mixed in cut greens. The acidy is perfect and gentle. The finish isn’t quite as good as the 02 Krug we had on my birthday in March but, it’s a close relative. It’s super; refined, delicate, unbelievable knitting, well balanced, elegantly polished like 75 degree sunshine on your face and persists softly like baby skin for minutes.

An amazing cuvée!

Photos of; the Champagne house of Egly-Ouriet, A-frame bottles in their cave, Owner/ Francis Egly (since taking it over from his father in 1982) in one of his Ambonnay Grand Cru Vineyards and vines around the estate.

Producer notes, Elgy-Ouriet was planted in 1946 to Pinot Noir in pure-chalk soil of ‘Crayères.’ Unquestionably one of the finest, south-facing terroirs in Ambonnay. Les Crayères is the top single vineyard of the estate, containing the oldest vines. 100% Pinot Noir from the renowned Les Crayères known for its extremely shallow topsoil and chalky bedrock. Completely barrel fermented, and aged 70 months on the lees. It's a blend of the 2010 and 2011 vintages and was disgorged in July 2018 after 72 months sur lattes.
— 6 years ago

P, Arden and 41 others liked this
Shay A

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Seems like you enjoyed it as much as I did. Superb champagne!
James

James

Everything David describes is completely accurate. The nose and the palate are aligned, yet surprisingly different in initial impact. I’m loving this, and champagne isn’t my wheelhouse. If you happen on a bottle, but it.
Somm David T

Somm David T Influencer Badge

@Shay A Brilliant...not quite the 02 Krug. 😋

Brooklyn Cider House

Half Sour Cider

Very interesting. Almost like a cider from Bretagne but with a twist — 7 years ago

Saxum Vineyards

Bone Rock James Berry Vineyard Syrah 2008

Mike R
9.5

Love these guys @Joe Lucca @Shawn R @David L as part of the Wine nerd herd and we get together ever so often

About to post more wines that are from the event

We met last week at Iowa and had a blast

This is not a picture of the wine but we enjoyed the Saxum in a mag with a great dinner at 801 chop house

To the next tine gents - drink well and miss you already
— 7 years ago

Aaron HamrockJoe LuccaEric L.
with Aaron, Joe and 3 others
Mike, Eric and 23 others liked this
Bill Bender

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This doesn’t show up on my feed 🤷🏻‍♂️
Shawn R

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@Bill Bender your not tagged in the picture and he did it via search.
Mike R

Mike R Influencer Badge

@Bill Bender @Shawn R Bill you are tagged on my posting so idea why you did not get bud

Sanford

Sanford & Benedict Vineyard Pinot Noir 2013

03/18 James Beard House — 3rd course: ducketta, fermented apple, herb salad

Very aromatic, loved it
— 8 years ago

Casa Dumetz

Solid Ground GSM Red Blend

03/18 James Beard House — fourth course: polenta, flat iron steak, porcini jus — 8 years ago